An interview with the woman who lives with her ex-husband, their two teenagers and ... his new wife
🗣 It's not what you think
I’m so excited to bring you this interview with Suzanne Vickberg, a writer and psychologist who blew my damn mind with her non-traditional divorce path and a crystal clear point of view that made me feel surprisingly emotional. I encourage you to read on for her story, follow her on the socials, and IMPORTANT NOTE TO AGENTS AND PUBLISHING FOLKS, later this year she’ll be looking for representation for the book she’s finishing up!
KIMBERLY: You and I “met” when you reached out to me to share that you had incorporated excerpts from my piece “Let’s Have the Wedding Later” (from AMATEUR HOUR), into a wedding toast. I don’t want to tell that story for you so can you explain the living arrangement you were in at the time and who was getting married?
SUZANNE: Tim, my ex-husband, was getting married to Ana, his long-time girlfriend. “Let’s Have the Wedding Later” had really resonated with me when I first read it — I’ve always been a bit skeptical about how we typically DO weddings. So when Tim and Ana asked me to give their wedding speech, I wanted to incorporate part of that essay because they waited a good eight years or so before getting married, and it seemed a perfect fit.
People may think it's a bit strange that I, as the ex-wife, would be asked to give the wedding speech, but Tim, Ana, and I all live together with our two teenage kids, so no one knows them as a couple better than I do. And since people sometimes wonder, I'll just put it out there: no, Ana and I are not sister wives and we are not a thruple, but we are good friends and we’re all co-parenting our kids together.
When you told me about your living arrangement I found it really interesting that I had just spent two years writing a book that was pushing back against the expected divorce path and your story felt like a real “hold my beer” moment ha ha. Can you talk about how your living arrangement came to be? How has it evolved?
What amazed me was I had no idea about your living situation or your upcoming book when I contacted you! I simply thought you might find it interesting that I had read part of your essay at my ex-husband’s wedding, and I wanted to share how much it had resonated with the guests who listened.
As anyone who has contemplated divorce knows, it’s an agonizing decision. Do I stay in this marriage that's not making me happy or do I leave and make everyone else unhappy? When I was wrestling with that choice, I just kept thinking ... these cannot be my only two options. There must be a way to do this without burning it all to the ground. While our marriage didn’t work, Tim’s a good guy and we had two little kids. So I suggested we split up without anyone moving out, so that we could still raise our kids together in our home. And he was willing to try just about anything that would allow him to keep living with the kids full-time. Ten years later, Ana has joined our family and we’ve added onto our house so we all have more space and more privacy.
People have THOUGHTS when you don’t do divorce the expected way. What have the reactions been to your family configuration? What has surprised or disappointed you about others’ reactions? Any funny stories? What’s been hard?
One year at our annual Christmas party, Ana and I were explaining our living situation to a neighbor’s mom. She looked at us, confused, and said, “but you both seem like such nice, normal girls!” I’m sure there are a lot of assumptions and misunderstandings about what’s going on in our house. My 16-year-old asked me the other day if people think we're polygamous and I told him "probably," but we just can’t care. We’re doing what’s best for our family.
In the beginning, everyone told us we wouldn’t be able to stay in the house together, or that we shouldn’t. Anyone who conceded that it might work temporarily assured us it wouldn't work once one of us met someone else. But Tim and Ana met shortly after he and I split up, and we just kept right on going with it. When we took out a big loan for the addition on the house, people thought we were totally crazy.
Lots of people don’t “get it” until they come over to our house and see what it’s like. I think that was true of all three of our families. Once they came to visit our newly configured household, it finally made sense to them. My mother, for one, apologized for not having trusted me to know what was best for my family. That apology meant a lot to me.
Over the years, when I’ve described our situation to other people, reactions have ranged from incredulity to awe, with sometimes a bit of envy mixed in from those who are still married, but are maybe wishing they weren’t. You can tell who those people are, because they lean in a little closer when I start talking about it. Lots of people actually congratulate me or tell me they have a lot of respect for what we’ve been able to do. Lots of people also say, “I cannot imagine doing that.” Who knows what they say when my back is turned, but after ten years, no one tells us we can’t do it anymore.
What have been the positives of your arrangement either for you or other members of your family? The challenges? The surprises?
The kids are huge beneficiaries of what we're doing. They’ve been able to stay in their home and be with their mom and dad every day, plus they gained another mom. Win. Win. Win.
But the rest of us benefit too. We have three parents in the house and two kids — outnumbering them is a huge plus! We all have so much flexibility. We take turns feeding the kids and driving to their activities, but our schedule has never been very strict; any of us can do pretty much anything we want out in the world, as there is usually someone else at home to take care of things. And we've all got each other's help and support. I, for example, really appreciate that Tim gets out there with the snowblower when there's a storm. Financially, it's easier as well, because we've got one household instead of two.
Of course there are challenges as well. Tim and I get along better now than when we were married, but some of our less positive dynamics remain. The great thing is, we both trust Ana enough to mediate when needed. I also manage more of the scheduling with her, because he and I don't always communicate as well as one would hope. If I sense a tone in his response to me, I get frustrated, hurt, or angry, depending on the day. Also, he just doesn't understand why our lives have to be run by a calendar. Overall, it's pretty peaceful in our house though, and I think having separate kitchens is a key success factor. Let's just say our opinions differ about whether it's okay to go to bed with dirty dishes in the sink. (And if you're picturing my kitchen as the one that's sparkling clean, you'd be wrong.)
And then there's dating. I've dated plenty over the past ten years and have had a few relationships that lasted a year or so, but nothing that's stuck. I do think the pool is smaller for me because of our situation — plenty of men aren't okay with it, but they likely wouldn't be a good match for me anyway. On the other hand, some think our living arrangement means I'm an anything-goes kind of person, that I'm looking for an open relationship or to go to sex clubs (I'm not.) I don't bring dates home unless things are progressing past the early stages, but when I have done so, Tim and Ana have always made them feel welcome. Despite the fact that I'm still single ten years after leaving my marriage to find a better match, I don't regret it for a second. It's not perfect, but I love the life we've created.
Even the dogs are a blended family 🥺
I’ve found myself as this sort of accidental counselor to friends and strangers alike who are rethinking marriage and divorce and it surprises me (but doesn’t surprise me) how entrenched the divorce path is. You separate from each other, live in two different places, kids go back and forth, etc. Having said that, what my family is doing and what your family is doing definitely isn’t for everyone. What would you tell someone who’s considering trying a non-traditional family arrangement when a marriage has run its course, you get along reasonably well with your ex, and kids are involved?
It’s interesting that getting divorced used to make you a real rebel. Now, there’s a traditional way to do it, and that traditional way sucks for most people involved. I call myself a divorce revolutionary because I want to show people there can sometimes be a better way. You're right, it's not for everybody, but you don't have to live with your ex in order to have a divorce that's better in some way than the norm. It's really about making a mindset shift, challenging the traditional path, and asking lots of questions about why we should do things in a particular way and what if we did things differently. It's about creative problem solving.
I think the traditional script is so entrenched because people are so overwhelmed by their emotions — anger, fear, hurt — that they just want someone to tell them what to do. There are plenty of people willing to do so, and most of those people have seen or experienced some terrible divorces where people were trying to screw each other over. At this point, the societal expectation is that people will necessarily act horribly toward each other when getting divorced, and so in order to “protect” you, everyone says you must get divorced in the traditional way. And some people do act horribly, but lots of others don't.
Other people can obviously be a big support when you’re getting divorced, but it’s important to tune into your own voice and try to tune others out sometimes, at least a little. Except don't tune me out, because I'm trying to tell you something important! 🙂 I encourage people to get very clear about what problem you're trying to solve for by getting divorced, and then to create a solution that solves for that, but doesn't over-solve for problems you don't have. For example, in my case, I wanted the freedom to find a partner that's a better match for me, but that didn't require cutting Tim totally out of my life. It didn't require selling our home, a custody battle, or a judge to tell us how much either of us should pay for things. We didn't need any of that to solve our problems and so our divorce didn't include those things.
Your kids are now teenagers. Is there a plan in place for ending this living arrangement once your kids are out in the world and onto their own lives?
For now, the plan is to sell the house — it's not really affordable for any of us to keep on our own — but that plan is not written in stone. If Covid has taught me one thing, it's that we really don't know what the future holds. The kids don't want us to move out; they want to be able to come HOME for school breaks to be with all of us. And I get it. On the other hand, I've told them while I'm grateful we've been able to do this for them and for ourselves, it’s still been a sacrifice. And after 15 years of that kind of sacrifice, it will be my turn to do whatever it is I want to do. But for now, I've got two kids to launch into the world over the next four years. Once that happens, we'll see where I go next.
I know you’re working on a book. Can you talk a little bit about that, where people can find you, and any other resources you’ve found helpful?
Yes, I’m currently putting the finishing touches on a book that guides readers through creating a more positive divorce themselves, and also shares my own divorce story. The book's working title is DIVORCE BY DESIGN, because my approach is guided by the tenets of design thinking. I've written it from the perspective of someone who has created a more positive divorce, but also as a psychologist with expertise in creative problem solving. To keep track of me, stay informed about when the book will be published, and get some quick hits of advice in the meantime, it's best to follow me on IG (@divorcexdesign), check out my website (suzannevickberg.com), or attend a gathering of the Positive Divorce Club on Clubhouse.
If you're getting divorced right now you likely can't wait for my book to come out, so read the OPTIMIST’S GUIDE TO DIVORCE, a practical and uplifting book by Suzanne Riss and Jill Sockwell. They’re supportive and funny and you'll feel like you've got two wicked smart girlfriends right there with you in the trenches. If you can even imagine attempting to stay in your home together or keeping your kids in the home while you and your ex revolve in and out, you might like to join Beth Behrendt’s Facebook group Family nesting: Birdnesting coparenting after divorce. Everyone there is attempting some version of nesting and you can get lots of different people’s perspectives on the benefits and challenges.
💥 BOOK TOUR NEWS 💥
The tour for BUT YOU SEEMED SO HAPPY will be small but 💥MIGHTY💥! Keep checking back here for more details soon. But for now, I’m stupid excited to announce the dates and an absolute dream team of conversation partners!
💥 10/5 BOOK LAUNCH with Phoenix Books | Burlington VT (VIRTUAL 🤖) with the generous and incredible Kate Baer, #1 NYT best selling poet of WHAT KIND OF WOMAN and the forthcoming I HOPE THIS FINDS YOU WELL.
💥 10/7 Book Soup | Los Angeles CA (VIRTUAL 🤖) with Tony Award-winner and five-time Tony Award nominee, incredible singer and actress on screens of all sizes, and the only Melania I care about, Laura Benanti! This is my only book event on west coast time so put it in yer calendars now, people.
💥 10/11 Powerhouse Arena | Brooklyn NY (IN PERSON 👯♀️) with the first person to send me kind of a naughty DM about AMATEUR HOUR, Emily Flake, a long-time cartoonist for The New Yorker, author of THAT WAS AWKWARD, founder of St. Nell’s, and general all-around lunatic. Wear your masks and get vaccinated so I can have literally just one (1) goddamn in-person book event! I had like 11 last time! Do it, you fuckers!
And then there’s me, A MAD VICTORIAN GHOST 👻
SPEAKING OF GHOSTS, WANT ME TO HAUNT YOUR BOOK CLUB? I’ll be sitting in (virtually) on 10 book clubs this year! Scroll down to the end of my previous newsletter for details on how to enter 👻
THINGS FROM ELSEWHERE:
• “There They Go, Bad-Mouthing Divorce Again” by Jane Smiley in The New York Times (from 2000.) “Divorce is a right that took many generations to gain. It is no more a guarantor of happiness than marriage, but also no less.”
• I really appreciate Jen White Johnson’s Instagram in general but this particular post made me feel so emotional, thinking of all the prep when your kid needs an extra introduction or adjustment time to a classroom or camp or school (been there.) “Let’s continue to declare justice, access and accommodations for our disabled and Neurodiverse kids in academic spaces! They deserve freedom and radical joy in spaces that are meant to lift them up.” Swipe through this post for the little booklet that she designed, it’s so wonderful.
• Sharing this for reasons I won’t get into “Johnny Knoxville’s Last Rodeo” in GQ 👀
• This is, hands down, one of the most incredible things I have ever read. It’s long, but absolutely worth your time. “What Bobby McIlvaine Left Behind: Grief, conspiracy theories, and one family’s search for meaning in the two decades since 9/11” in The Atlantic.
• Y’all, this is one gang you’re going to want to join: Badass Patches for READERS and LIBRARY People ☠️📚🔥
• “Women Who Said No to Motherhood: A photographer in Berlin is capturing the lives of the consciously child-free.” in The New York Times. Absolutely love this piece and the portraits. As we continue to reexamine every institution in American life, motherhood should be at the top of the list (and is, for lots of young women.) Also, LOL at this devastating Don Draper-esque response: “It’s surprising how many women are offended by my decision. They think, ‘What must you think of me if I’ve got kids?’ I don’t think about you at all. I just don’t want kids.”
• Lastly, an absolutely massive FUCK YOU to Texas Republicans and Gov. Greg Abbott for essentially banning abortion in the state of Texas. The 6-week mark in a pregnancy is a cynical deadline based in the reality that people in this country have no goddamn idea how women’s bodies (or pregnancy timing) work (including women!) So, here: “Honestly, We Just Hate Women” in McSweeney’s. Donate to 9 Texas abortion funds here.
Preorder BUT YOU SEEMED SO HAPPY here. Preorder a SIGNED copy of BUT YOU SEEMED SO HAPPY here. You can find my copywriting and creative direction work here. You can find my writing-writing work here. You can find me on Twitter. You can find me on Instagram. Please do not find me in real life, I’m busy doing things non-traditionally.